A Letter to My Mother
A couple of years ago, my mother converted to a Christian belief system – one that is near fundamentalist. She had never been religious before and we used to be able to talk about anything. We talked in reasonable and rational terms (well, pretty much). When she told me about her conversion, I admit I reacted rather vehemently. You see, I have spent years “recovering” from a fundamentalist belief system. I felt I had lost my mother all over again.
A little history:
When I was 3 years old, my parents divorced. Somehow, my father got custody of me. Unheard of in the very early 1960’s. Well, he left me with his mother (for 5 years until he remarried) and prevented my mother from having any further contact with me. When I was 18, I asked him for some data on her so I could find her – like a birthdate. He told me he “did not remember”. I still remember my ex-husband’s birthdate, but perhaps he was “just being a guy” in not remembering birthdates. Finally, when I was about 26, my mother contacted him (again). He relented and gave her my address. (More on this whole story in a later post),
Suffice it to say that my mother and I got along great. I found out where I get some of my characteristics. Finally I no longer felt like the black sheep. We have remained close ever since. Not so with my father. I have not spoken to him in many years. Not because of the issue with my mother, though. I have not spoken to him because of his current wife. (Which is another story for a later post.)
Back to the present:
Well, my mother has told me she is praying for my soul. I have told her I am praying for hers. We achieved a truce last year, but of course, she can’t resist bringing up her religion in nearly every conversation. My fear of having a wall between us has been realized.
Last week, she wrote me a letter. Yes, a handwritten letter. In it, she asked me to write to her about why I have “turned away from my faith”. Wow. She was wise to suggest writing as the medium of exchange as it retains space and distance so I can gather my thoughts before expressing them. We will have less room for argument.
I began writing and wrote so much stuff that I have had to set it aside for a time in order to gain perspective. I wanted to keep it simple for my first response. I envisioned a simple letter with references to more info upon request. I love my mother and do not want to overwhelm her. Yet, I do want to connect. Perhaps, she would ask for further information and we would develop a written exchange of ideas. Yet, as I sit down to write, I find I cannot keep it simple. (it is a bit of a long read)
Here then, is my letter to my mother
(I have exchanged names for generic title to preserve privacy. I have used excerpts from some of my previous posts – where appropriate, I have designated them as such.):
Dear Mom,
Wow.
When I read your letter, I was moved by your desire to understand me better. I think it is wise of you to suggest writing about this. You are right, it will help us exchange ideas rather than argue about them. Although, asking questions and disagreeing is not necessarily arguing.
That first evening after reading your letter, I wrote a lot. Then, I had to sit on it for awhile. I wanted to keep my first response simple. Then, you could ask for more and I could try to give it. I found I could not keep it simple. I edited the best I could.
First, I want to apologize for my vehement response when you first told me about your new beliefs. I was so terribly afraid of losing you to “religion”. I was afraid of the wall that would go up between us. Although I respect everyone’s right to believe as they choose, I cannot agree with Christianity. Actually, I cannot agree with most religions as they are presented.
I do take wisdom from many of the religions I have looked into, but I do not believe that any of them are “The Truth”.
Christianity is particularly difficult for me as many Christians see it as their duty to convert everyone. They believe they hold the abosolute and the only truth; and everyone else should believe as they do. The fundamentalists are the worst. I know, I was one – Southern Baptist is a fundamentalist denomination. I worried that you would try to convert me. I don’t want to be converted and I don’t want to argue with you. How am I supposed to react when I don’t agree and I can’t go along with you on this topic? Yet I don’t want to fight. This is the wall I feared. I felt like I had lost you all over again…
My deconversion happened over time. Little by little over the years as I searched for “truth”, I have come to where I am today. Some of the factors contributing to my deconversion are: the events in my life, my fiercely independent nature, my study of various philosophies and religions, and my use of reason over the years.
So, here goes.
Background (my mother asked for this information because she did not raise me and does not know everything of my childhood):
My grandmother started me out with the Southern Baptist denomination. When my father married his current wife and I went to live with them, I continued to attend church even though they did not. I was a devout believer and was baptised at around age 10. As a teen-ager, I even taught vacation bible school. I was involved with the youth group as well. I prayed a lot.
First events and conditions that I remember causing me to question:
-Faith did me no good. My Stepmother was still abusive. God did not protect me. In fact, I have had periods in my life when I had “faith” and periods when I did not. Life seems not much different either way – good things and bad things happen. Some, as a natural consequence of choices I made and some random (luck).
-At age 16, I had a question about religion. ( excerpts from “Beginning of the End of Belief“.) I went to my pastor and asked. I was told that since I was female, I was not allowed to ask the pastor questions directly. He said I needed to ask my husband or my father. I was not married and my father did not attend church nor did he read the bible. I belonged to a very small church and my pastor knew these things. I even pointed them out to the pastor. He insisted I talk to my father.
I was shocked and confused. I ask you, does having a penis somehow endow males with spiritual knowledge? It made no sense to me (still doesn’t). After all, if I have a medical question, I ask a doctor, etc. I had a spiritual/religious question, so I went to the person who was trained in religion and spirituality.
The more I think about it, the more It seems to be a way to make sure the females only know what the males in their life (fathers and later husbands) want them to know. Maybe that pastor did not want to step on another male’s toes by giving the female any information her father or her (theoretical) husband did not want her to have.
That was the beginning of my deconversion from Christianity. I did not give up on Christianity yet, though. I have always had a deep need to seek Truth, and I am stubborn. I thought maybe it was just this church….Oh, how I wanted to believe.
In my search:
I went on to try various churches – Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc. I read about Buddhism, Hinduism, and a variety of other religions. I read about various philosophies and more recently political theory. Early on, I decided that all the religions had something to offer. I also decided that no one religion was “The Truth”…
Then, the more I read, the more I came to believe that religion is created by man.
Civilization needs a code of conduct in order to function properly. Mankind, as a species, has the capacity for reason. Alas, as a species, we have not fully developed this capacity. Religion has the advantage of bypassing reason – we follow the rules “because God says so”. Who could argue with that?
Politics and religion have long gone hand in hand. In fact, religion has long been a tool of politics. Influence someone’s beliefs and you have influence over their minds. With this influence, you can more easily control people’s behavior.
Constantine knew this when he created the Roman Catholic Church. He was a pagan, himself, but the relatively new “Christianity” was growing. This early Christianity taught people that they did not need church or priests to commune with God. They were not as controllable with these beliefs. So, Constantine got a committee together to decide on what books would be in the bible. People were much more biddable when they had to follow the priests rules.
I Just Don’t Know (I included excerpts from one of my previous posts “I Just Don’t Know“)
I thought I should clarify something. I have stated I am no longer Christian. Many might assume that I am an athiest. I am not. I am agnostic.
Quotes from Wikipedia (online encyclopedia):
“Agnosticism (from the Greek “a,” meaning “without,” and Gnosticism or “gnosis,” meaning knowledge) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable due to the nature of subjective experience.”
“Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while individual certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism.”
What this means to me is that I am “without knowledge” or “I just don’t know”. And, I am certainly skeptical!
Agnostics come in a variety of flavors. There are those like me who are quite unconvinced either way. We simply cannot or will not choose atheism or religion. There are those mentioned above that are agnostic first but choose to follow a religion anyway. (I have tried this many times, and it just doesn’t work for me). I am sure there are those who are agnostic, but choose atheism.
In many ways, being agnostic frees me up to explore the various philosophies, religions, etc without prejudice. (Okay, maybe not absolutely without prejudice, but then I don’t believe there is much that is absolute in this world.) In this exploration, I am free to adopt aspects of those philosophies and religions that make sense to me. My beliefs, opinions, perspectives seem to be continually changing as I learn things. This seems to work best for me. Of course, I do stubbornly hang on to certain beliefs and opinions. It is not easy to admit when I am wrong, which is what you must do in order to change a belief or an opinion. The more invested I am in a particular belief, the more my ego fights to hang on to it.
There may be a “creator”, but I really don’t believe this “creator” to be any of the gods of any of the religions. Nor, do I believe that this “creator” takes a personal interest in individuals. If there was a “creator”, he/she/it simply made the world (or universe) and let it go as it would. Why else do we have free will? We are born with the capacity for free will. Although, not all of us use it.
Some Questions I have considered:
-Does God exist? Is Jehovah (of the Christian religion) the one true God? If not, is some other god the one true God? If Jehovah is the one true God, do I worship and love him?
- what evidence do we use to answer the questions about God? We have books of scripture, like the Bible, and observation of reality. Science has become the formalized system of observing reality. The Bible is the Christian book of scripture. Since I know more of it, than books of other religions, I will be referring to it.
So, we have Scripture and Science.
Science produces reliable, predictable, and observable results. Prayer and Scripture produces random, unpredictable, and often unobservable results – you must take it on faith.
-The Bible is put forth as the word of God. Is it meant to be interpreted literally? Or, is it to be taken metaphorically? Christians are told to follow it. They are told that the whole bible is God’s word. But, it is full of contradictions. How do you know which parts to follow? Do you go by what the clergy tells you? After all, they are also only human.
-(excerpts from previous post “God vs the Bible” – Revisited“) If the Bible is the word of God to be taken as metaphor, why are the metaphors so sloppy as in the Creation Myth. Grant that “days” spoken of in terms of “on the first day” could be metaphoric for eras or ages, why not correlate the “days” of creation more closely with “ages of creation”…
According to my bible:
* first day: God separates light from dark, calling light “day” and dark “night”.
* second day: God creates an expanse between the waters to separate water from water – water under the expanse and water above it. God calls the expanse “sky”.
* third day: God creates land and seas, and goes on to create vegetation.
* fourth day: God creates the sun, moon, and stars. (What? Plants coming before the sun, moon, and stars? Why not create these “light sources” on the first day along with “day” and “night”?)
* fifth day: God creates living creatures on land and sea.
* sixth day: God further specifies that the land produce living creatures according to their kinds, and finally creates man (in God’s image) to rule over everything.
Were the Bible written by humans some thousands of years ago, I would not be so critical of their mistakes. After all, they were human. Humans make mistakes, and they did not have the scientific knowledge that we have today. But if it is the inspired word of God, I admit I would hold it to a higher standard. Or if humans are created in the image of God, as the Bible states, does that mean that we make mistakes because like God, we are not perfect…
-If Christianity were the one true religion, why is it not older than any other religious scripture? Did humans just discover “the one true religion” a few thousand years ago? What about all the people who came before? Why didn’t God reveal himself to them? (Christianity is patriarchal, but matriarchal religions are the oldest forms of worship.)
-I think it would be a horror if we still followed all the laws of the Bible. Have you read Leviticus? It is in Leviticus that the laws are mostly written. Among other things, it says homosexuals should be put to death. The bible tells us that God created us. If God created us, why did he create homosexuals if he hates them so much? Maybe God is not perfect. There is a lot of evidence that homosexuality is not a choice, but that it is just the way some people are born. Do you really believe that if it were a simple choice, that people would choose it when it means such persecution? Actually, it may have made some sense to discourage homosexuality back then, as it did not produce offspring. For some reason, they thought they needed more humans. Most likely, they wanted to grow their tribes in order to be more powerful than the other tribes.
I think we have enough people now. In fact, this planet is getting crowded. As a result, we are fighting over oil right now. Soon, we will be fighting over water. Have you read the news lately? There are droughts in places that droughts are unheard of. This is not “God’s wrath”, but the natural consequences of our actions on this planet.
-The story of Job is particularly disturbing. Basically, Jehovah said that Job was a rightous man and would not turn from his faith. Satan said sure, but you won’t let me test him. I bet he would crack if I had a go at him. So Jehovah, to settle a bet with Satan, gave permission for Satan to do what he wanted – stipulating only that Satan must not kill Job. So Satan killed Job’s wife and children, and took all Job’s wealth away from him. Sure, in the end, Jehovah got Job a new wife and new goats. But, what about the original family, don’t they count? Why did Jehova have to prove anything to Satan? Job was a “good boy” and kept his faith, I guess a new family is just as good as the first one. After all, in a patriarchal system, women are property and not really any more important than the goats. How could I love such a God? I cannot. God is supposed to be the father figure. I think this is a rather warped image of a father. If my own father did this to me, I would hate him. Yet, we are told this story as a guide to keeping faith no matter what. I think it teaches us to put up with whatever abuse the authorities want to put us through.
-Or, what about the story of Abraham? Jehovah told him to kill his only son! Sure, Jehovah stayed his hand in the end, but what do you think the son felt when he saw that his father was about to kill him? And, that God had told his father to do it? I think that even if Jehovah is “the one true god”, he is a sadistic, twisted one. We are told that God is omniscient, didn’t he already know that Abraham was faithful? Why did God need Abraham to be willing to kill his son for God? God can strike me down, but I will not love him. It is not love if the alternative is eternal death. It is fear.
Many denominations talk about being “god-fearing” in the same breath as they say God is a loving god and you should love him in return. Is it a loving being who inspires fear and demands adoration “or else”?
Oh, how I wanted God to love me. But, if this is love, I can do without it.
Love,
Your Daughter.
I am attaching copies of my previous posts – “The Garden of Eden” and “Liberals, Conservatives, and The Garden of Eden“.
I really want my mother back.
I wish I could talk to you. There are so many questions you’ve asked that are easily answered. There are others that are more difficult – some of them very difficult – for which I’ve arrived at very different answers. I’m sorry your pastor brushed you off years ago. I would have answered you.
Thank you for leaving your thoughts.
You are free to post some of those answers here.
I cannot say I will agree, but if you offer well thought out answers, I will be willing to listen. I may argue with your thinking, but I respect that you sound like you have given things some thought. That is all I ever ask.
I don’t, however, respond well to people who push their beliefs on me. I am likely to just push back. If you make an offer of information, then let me decide for myself, I am far more likely to hear you. Maybe we can have a conversation…an exchange, if you will.
I’d be more comfortable in a private setting like email or myspace messages. Any thoughts?
Hmmmm…Of course you would.
I’m sorry, but the request for private discussion merely reminds me of other men I have known who want to isolate the female; talking to her where others cannot hear…
I have know a lot of predators in my time. The news warns us that many have gone online. Most of the predators I met, were anxious to get me isolated. You would do well to get to know someone through comments before asking for private discussion…
Your request has only given rise to more questions on my part.
Given that you are not a predator…
Are religious answers a secret? Are there different answers given to different people and therefore need to be delivered secretly?
What would be so uncomfortable about discussing answers to some of my questions in a public forum? Would the answers not stand up to the light of public scrutiny?
You said some of the questions had easy answers, how about starting with one of those; right here in public. Just pick one. I don’t expect all the answers to all my questions in one shot. In fact, starting with just one (your choice), facilitates easier digestion of information.
Truly, I do not understand the need for privacy on issues that concern so many of us.
Nothing fires people up like a good old fashioned religious debate! Oh…how I love them!!!
I refer to myself as spiritual but it’s a huge grey area for me. I know what I believe in and it isn’t Christianity and it isn’t the bible. I went to a catholic school and spent most of religious studies driving the Nun mad. Eventually she went from calling me Devil’s Spawn to softening and welcoming my debates with a smile. I won her over!
What I will not tolerate is anyone pushing their religious beliefs onto me. This is where religion has ceased being beneficial and become a public nuisance. Try and recall a war that wasn’t based around religion and you’d be hard pressed to find one. If someone’s religion enhances their lives without alienating others, then good luck to the believer. What ever gets you through the night, so they say.
I wrote a novel – don’t worry I won’t promote it here, lol -but it was born out of my interest in Satan. Now, when I say ‘interest in Satan’ I certainly don’t mean Satan worshipping. I was more intrigued with the mythology and set about studying it all for my own curiosity. In the original version of the bible Lucifer was never referred to as Satan – in fact, he was never referred by name at all except as ‘The Morning Star’. Lucifer meaning ‘Light of God’ or ‘Light Bearer’. The Morning Star is Venus, and Venus has always represented love. Only in the updated King James version of the bible did Lucifer suddenly get tagged as Satan. There is absolutely no evidence to prove Lucifer fell except in cryptic bible passages mankind has adapted to keep the villagers in line with the wrath of God and Satan pitched against one another. Good and Evil – it’s a manmade concept not a Heavenly one. Further research came up with Satan actually being another Archangel by the name of Satanail. Satanial, surprise surprise, never even existed at the time of Christ and was invented long after Jesus died.
Like I said, I’m not a Satantic freak, but it does raise serious questions about the ligitmacy of the bible and the foundations on which Christianity has been built. If there is no Satan, who can the people blame for tempting them into evil? Uh oh…themselves perhaps???
I’m getting carried away now – as I said, I love these debates and could talk about it for hours! But you’re completely right, Fireshadow, the Old Testament is violent and does not portray God as a creator I’d want to worship. All the things the New Testament then backflips on as it portrays God as forgiving and loving. So which is it??? One book, two different Gods, or one God with a severe split personality disorder!!
Oh, and one more thing, apparantly God also cast out the revered Archangel Gabriel for 200 years when he failed to deliver a message properly! (Jewish teaching) Damn…what hope do we have for getting through the pearly gates if poor old Gabriel got cast into hell for two whole centuries when he made a boo boo!
Zathryn, please feel free to promote your novel! Or, at least let us know the title – which book is it?
BTW, for anyone interested, Zathryn’s books are shown on his blog…just click his name.
Thank you for leaving your comment. I like you even more now! A kindred spirit.
I have some rather interesting ideas about Lucifer, myself. I will at some point write about them…when I get around to that topic. Doesn’t “Lucifer” also mean “bearer of light?”
Hmmm…”bearer of light”…”enlightenment”…hmmm.
“So which is it??? One book, two different Gods, or one God with a severe split personality disorder!!” – My thoughts exactly!
Also, that was a great article – “Remember this before you drink and drive over the Xmas season“
fireshadow,
You said, “Prayer and Scripture produces random, unpredictable,and often unobservable results…”.
Then, how would you rate my prayer experience posted in de-conversion.com as “God answers prayer”.
Would you leave a comment, please.
By this:
If your system was predictable and observable, then anyone should be able to achieve the same results you did.
I tried not once, twice, or even 10 times. I tried your system for years and I got no different results than when I spent years not “working your system”.
Maybe it works for some people like you, but not for others like me.
This is what I mean by randomness or luck. Some got it some don’t. Some get it sometimes but not always. That is unpredictable results in my opinion.
And, I tried it from various denominational and non-denominational perspectives just to give it a fair shot.
Does this answer your question?
Precisely! The very name ‘Lucifer’ is a name of beauty not evil. Yes, ‘Bearer of Light’ is another meaning. What all these point to is that Lucifer is indeed the light of God, or the way of enlightenment back to God. Personally I think Lucifer’s got himself a very harsh deal by being the pawn all sinners point the finger at as the one who tempted them to rape, kill, and pillage.
Another thing that’s never sat well with me is this. If God created Archangels and Angels as beings of unlimited love (And this is exactly what religion teaches) then it simply does not make sense one of them could suddenly tap into an evil alter ego and challenge his creator. No matter if Lucifer had free will or not, his unlimited love -something he was born with – would have won over his apparant vanity and uppity clash with his father. The key word is ‘unlimited’. If something is ‘unlimited’ there are NO boundaries. In that case, doesn’t it make sense Lucifer’s ‘unlimited’ love for God, and his ‘unlimited’ love for mankind, would have plugged a stopper in his ‘limited’ mood swings???
The novel itself, Soul Mate Mirror, isn’t a religious debate as such. It isn’t a religious book, even though three of the main characters are Lucifer, Gabriel, and God. I don’t believe Lucifer or Gabriel have ever been portrayed quite the way I wrote them. Come to think of it, neither has God! lol It does push the boundaries of religious teachings, and I hope it gets people thinking. The very reason I wrote it was because I was fascinated by the myth surrounding Lucifer and the history of Archangels. There is more proof available, for anyone willing to read up on it, that Lucifer never fell and is still the Archangel of Light. What is the purpose of an Archangel of light? To light the path of sinners back to God. Hmmm…food for thought.
I think it’s ludicrous to suggest God, who is supposed to love us all equally, would show favouritism to someone who prayed in a church over someone who didn’t. I can’t quote the bible perfectly, but wasn’t it Jesus who said something along the lines of God being more impressed with one person who prayed honestly in solitude than those who massed inside a church and prayed half-heartedly in a group? Naturally Jesus didn’t put it quite like that! But that was the the general message.
Another point…didn’t God say in the Old Testament – When it seemed he chatted from the clouds quite regularly between bouts of killing children, destroying cities, turning people to salt for wanting one last look at their beloved, and all matter of other mayhem He enjoyed back then – ‘Thou shalt not worship anyone but me’? And yet Christianity seems to not worship God so much as it worships Jesus. Sure, that then opens up the argument of, ‘Jesus IS God!’ Well no he’s not, Jesus never professed to be God and was followed as the son of God. Of course the bible conveniently discarded the scriptures stating Jesus was not the son the God in literal terms any more than we are all children of God.
Jesus did what other preachers were too afraid to do, he gave women a voice, he treated the poor with respect, he wanted unity and that’s something we’re still fighting for today. Real history can prove this if people are brave enough to look beyond the bible covers. Was Jesus an amazing man? Yes. Was he a devine being, I don’t believe so. One only has to look toward the likes of Mother Teresa to see history recounts others who did strikingly similar things akin to Jesus.
What makes me annoyed is the assumption that anyone who isn’t a Christian is automatically an anthiest and will be cast into hell. I’m not an athiest, I’m not a devil worshipper, I’ve already been through hell and back but I still love God. I become incensed with presumptions of otherwise simply because I don’t follow the way of Christ. I don’t try and change other people’s belief systems and I don’t cast stones at those who believe differently to me. Why can’t we agree to disagree on certain religious or spiritual beliefs rather than send someone into a fiery abyss for an opinion?
One of my best friends is Muslim, we’ve known each other for over seven years. We could not differ any more than chalk and cheese on religion. Not once, not ever, has religion put a dampener on our strong friendship. She has a right to her belief, I have a right to mine, and arguments between us on the topic simply do not exist. That’s respect, how it should be. No trying to convert each other, no finger pointing, but plenty of love, laughter, and loyalty despite our differences.
Ahhh – we could banter like this for hours! lol
PS: It might sound like I’m anti-christian and I want to point out clearly this isn’t the case. What I get fired up over is ANY religion that tries to convert me, or anyone else, through what really boils down to bullying. I have an intense dislike of any bully no matter the disguise they’re wearing.
Give respect, get respect – it’s really that simple.
Matthew Paul, I went to look at your post at de-Conversion.org
Good for you! You attribute your success to God answering your prayer. There are other possibilities – you were so focused on your project (by all that prayer) and so determined, you made it happen. Or, did materials and money magically appear? If so, lucky you. Sounds like God loves you.
Does prayer work this way for you all of the time? If so, you are truly lucky. If not, then again, those are unpredictable results.
It has not worked for me. I spent years in anguish because I prayed and prayed for guidance. I wanted to know God’s purpose for me. God never answered my prayers. If it does not work for everyone, then again, unpredictable results.
Unless by the absence of an answer, I was meant to be exactly what I am – a doubter. It is not a fun job.
Zathyn, thanks for posting. I really want to read that book! Maybe after the holidays…
I agree, I love a lively discussion on religion and philosophy, but I do not want to fight about it unless someone is trying to shove it down my throat. Then, I will fight back.
I, too, have friends of various faiths. We are fine with it. I remember a fellow cab driver in Austin. He is American and converted to Islam many years ago. He is a truly “enlightened” man. He seems to glow with it. He even taught himself Aramaic (did I spell that right?) so that he could read some of the texts in their original language. I think he even taught himself some Hebrew and some Greek. He is pretty amazing. Everyone wants to be around him. He is very good at having discussions about religion without trying to convert anyone. It seems to really work for him.
The problem with my mother is that she is a (fairly) new convert to a near fundamentalist Christian faith. She does want to convert me, I think. She does try to respect my wishes, but can’t help slipping it in wherever she can. I admire her for trying to understand me better by asking for a letter. I love her so very much and hope this letter exchange will facilitate understanding and tolerance.
I sent it out two days ago, so now I wait…
Beautiful post, Fireshadow48 and I love Zathyn’s description of Lucifer. I’m not a god-fearing person and I walked cleanly from religion years ago, but I have to admit that I try to be Christ-like. I care for my fellow man and try to follow the “golden rule” as much as my temper will allow. If there’s a god and (s)he/it doesn’t get the value in that, I won’t be missing much of anything important.
I think that IS the golden rule, Miche, or it’s at least the golden template. Be kind to others, be the best person you can be, show respect, but allow yourself the leeway of being human. Let’s face it, if God gave us free will surely He knew at the time we’d struggle with it and make errors. I doubt He’d punish us for losing our temper or being confused occassionally at a crossroad.
Fireshadow – Soul Mate Mirror hasn’t been released yet, lol, but it will be in the early half of 2008.
Best Wishes all!
Yes! The Golden Rule. That one I like. You don’t have to believe in any particular god to practice that one.
It is also enlightened self-interest to follow the Golden Rule – If I want a better world, I must do my share to create a better world…
Thank you both for your comments.
fireshadow48,
Prayer has always worked for me the same.
It has worked for millions around the world irrespective of the group they are associated with.
It will work for anyone who makes a life-time commitment to Christ in simple child-like faith.
It is for you to take it or reject it. As you said at the end of your post to me, truly “It is not a fun job”.
God bless as you seek after Him.
Good bye.
Prayer has always worked for me. Sometimes I got a ‘no’ answer. At other times the answer was ‘wait’. Often I got an answer much more than I ever asked or imagined.
I constructed this building as a “laboratory test” for any one to see that God indeed answered prayers. Now no one can or needs to doubt that God answers prayers.
It is all a matter of getting in touch with the person of Christ and see Him act on your behalf.
“Yes”, “No”, “Wait”. Hmmm. Yes, I have heard that before. You know, I get the same three results without prayer…
That is what I call unpredictable results…
If I use science to run an experiment and it is sound, I receive the exact same results each and every time. Anyone else who performs that same experiment gets the exact same result each and every time. If you don’t get the expected result, it is not a sound experiment and you must return to the “drawing board”.
They don’t get 1 of 3 possibilities…it worked, no it didn’t work, or wait it worked later…What if your pharmaceutical manufacturer made medications that sometimes worked right away, sometimes did not work at all, or sometimes worked a day later?
All your story tells me is that you are one of those who fall into the “lucky” category as having things work out for you.
Within any large group, according to statistics, there will always be a portion that get “lucky” a lot, a portion that never get “lucky” and a larger group that sometimes get “lucky”.
posted by Mathew Paul – “It will work for anyone who makes a life-time commitment to Christ in simple child-like faith.”
You say it will work for anyone who believes and submits to God? Well, I did believe and I did submit. It did not work for me.
Or are you suggesting that I only thought I believed?…That if only I had tried harder?…Well, I have had enough of that kind of guilt! I tried so long and so hard that I began to feel like there must be something wrong with me. It nearly killed me – One day, I went down to the river with a gun, planning suicide. I had an encounter with myself. In the end, I did not have the courage to pull the trigger. So, I had to find a way to live. I am still alive, so I must have done something right within myself. It was afterwards that I finally gave up all my belief systems. I went into “The Void”. That is the name I gave it because I did not know any other term. (one day, I will write more of that experience.)
posted by Mathew Paul – “It is all a matter of getting in touch with the person of Christ and see Him act on your behalf.”
I tell you, I BELIEVED. IT DID NOT WORK FOR ME. Neither Christ nor God acted on my behalf. Apparently, God did not love me.
Again, this is unpredictable results…Because not everyone gets the same results as you do. Just because you believe they do, does not make it so. Just because “it worked” for you only proves that sometimes you get what you want or need.
I am glad it works for you. It is nice to know that someone is having success in their endeavors on a regular basis. Don’t change what you are doing as long as it is working…
Mathew Paul, I am only saying that I am not convinced either way with your story. It is a wonderful story. I think you did a great thing.
I remain agnostic on the topic of God. I remain very skeptical regarding religion.
I apologize for any vehemence, but as you can see it is an emotional issue for me. I also have a tendency to argue whenever anyone begins to assert absolutes in regards to things like religion. I don’t believe you have the evidence for an absolute, so I MUST play Devil’s Advocate – as I refer to in my “About”. This was one of those times I was compelled to argue. I tell you it is not a fun job…but seems to be my purpose in life..
posted by Mathew Paul – “It will work for anyone who makes a life-time commitment to Christ in simple child-like faith.”
This is what gets my back up – why does anyone have to make a lifetime commitment to Christ for God to love them and answer their prayers? Does that mean God brushes off every person of another faith? Correct me if I’m wrong, but at no time has God made a personal, public appearance to denounce all other faiths and demanded people follow Christianity. And strangely enough, I don’t think He ever will!
fireshadow, Sorry for the delay in posting.
I did not mean to argue with you. I am sorry for hurting you. Pl.forgive.
Pl. don’t call me a lucky fellow! I am a deeply wounded person. Some years ago we lost our two year old beautiful daughter the only one after the mother. We prayed hard. The answer was a definite ‘no’. Sixteen years ago a fever left me semi-paralysed. I am almost confined to the bedroom now. We prayed. Answer is ‘wait’. But in all this the peace we enjoy is beyond human imagination. These two incidents strengthened my faith in my God and in prayer.
See, prayer is not machanical. It is inter-personal. You are talking to the One Who made you. You are aligning your life to His will. There is tremendous joy when you do that.
Great. God be with you as you seek after the truth. But don’t forget the words of Jesus “I am the truth”. His claims are absolute.
Bye for now.
Zathyn,
By no means be offened, please.
We are all made different. Our likes and dislikes are different. Our temperments are different.
In the world we live in, we have different religions and philosophies of life. We can not and must not expect every one to follow ‘my view-point’. Let each one pick and choose for himself/herself. OK.
You asked, “Does that mean God brushes off every person of another faith?”
By no means. Let us look at what other faiths are offering. Look at the Jewish book(what Christians call Old Testament). It offers friendship with God as its ideal relationship with God. Abraham, their hero, was a friend of God. And Tanak(OT) says, “Do this and you shall live.” OK. Do you want to be a friend of God. I suggest you follow the OT.
Quran offers a relationship of submission to God. Islams means ’submission to Allah’. Do you want that relatio to Allah. Follow the Quran.
Do you want to be more philosophical and follow the Unknown and Unknowable god? I suggest you follow the philosophic Hinduism.
Do you want a religion without any god? Here you are. Follow Buddha.
The New Testament offers a filial relationship with God. Jesus said, “No one can come to the Father but by me”. His claim is absolute. You can know God of creation as your ‘Dad’ only through Christ.
I have been enjoying this relation with God for the last forty-eight years from the time I was twelve. I talk to Him as a child does and get all my physical needs met today. And I am looking forward to go to my ‘Dad’ when I leave this earthly body of mine which gives me a lot of hardship now.
It is yours to pick and choose.
Or do you want to be free from all these things? Do it. But the full responsibility is yours. You are your own master/mistress. When you leave this earth one day, you know what…?
Mathew Paul, I am truly sorry for your loss. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain of losing a child. You have weathered much hardship. I am not sure I could have weathered it so well as you have.
I continue to seek. In fact, I have been doing quite a bit of research lately.
I think perhaps my arguments are not with God, but with religion. I am not convinced that they (religious leaders past and present) tell us the whole truth. I am not sure that Truth has not been twisted to suit some human agenda.
The Gnostics speak of a “personal knowing” of God – Gnosis. I seek that and have not found it. It makes me think of your description of a personal relationship with God. If you have this, then yes, you are truly lucky. Life is often brutal as well as beautiful. A relationship or “knowing” of God would indeed be a comfort.
I read some time back that the scientists have found a “god gene” that may be related to the ability to “know” or believe in God. Perhaps I simply do not have that gene.
By the way, the atheists have not been able to convince me that God does not exist either. They cannot prove their belief any more than the religious can prove theirs (to me).
I just don’t know…but I have not given up seeking.
Good that you have not given up and that you are on to some research.
The only question you need to address yourself to is about the person and work of Christ.
Either you must say that he was the greatest fraud who ever lived on the face of the earth,
or say that He was indeed God in human form who came to seek and save us.
All other questions melt away at this.
Mathew Paul, thank you for returning. I am glad that I did not chase you away.
But…
I have a lot more questions than those regarding the figure called “Christ”. I have also found that answers are not always “either…or…”.
I have no argument with any one. Neither do I have answer to every question. After all, We all know only in part, don’t we?
One’s decision about Jesus is very crucial as He makes absolute claims. If His claims can not be relied on, was He not being a cheat? What other possibilities are there? I don’t know.
If my experience in sustaining miraculous provision for that building does not tell you any thing, I am afraid, I have nothing more to tell you except a lot more of such experiences in my site http://www.mathewpaul.org .
If my intruding in your blog in any way helped your thinking, I am glad. If not, please forgive me.
But please do not give up seeking after the truth.
Bye.
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How true you are! Religion is man made. Shun it.
But it should not keep you from God!!
Mathew Paul, So glad to see you back here! When you said “Bye”, I thought you had left for good.
So, yes, I believe I have established at least for myself that religion is man-made. Although, I admit freely that many religious texts have much wisdom in them.
That leaves the question of God. Still working on that.
fireshadow,
I said ‘Bye’ to arguments only. When you said some thing agreeable, I had to comment again.
Remember that the words of Christ are authoritative. He said, “The words I speak to you will judge you in the last day”(Jn.12:48).
Reading the letter to your mother, I know that you have very deep wounds in your heart, being slighted by your pastor in your young days, and being deprived of parental love and care. But I rquest you to forgive them unilaterally. One thing the Lord does to people who come to Him is to forgive their past and help them begin again.
Please do not miss the best from God due to people around you.
Mathew Paul, I agree forgiveness is necessary.
I have learned that forgiveness if more for the person forgiving than for the person to be forgiven. Forgiveness helps you let go of anger and hatred and then you can move on. Forgiveness does not mean that you condone what the person did, nor does it mean that you must leave yourself open for future abuse from that person. All forgiveness means is that you let go of the anger and hatred.
Although, I have forgiven my father and his wife, I no longer speak with them. For many years, I did try to communicate with them as I did want a relationship. But, she has not changed and continues to be abusive. God did not protect me from my stepmother, so I must protect myself. I do love my father, but my stepmother will not allow my father to write or talk with me unless I talk to her…
When I write of my past, I write merely to document my process and where I have been. I do feel sad that things worked out the way they did, but I have moved on.
I am happy with the life I have created for myself. I have a great relationship with many friends and family. I do have love in my life. Love is all I ever wanted.
The pastor who refused to answer my questions was not the reason I left Christianity behind, just that particular church. I went on to try many other churches.
There have been many rewrites of religious books. Many of the rewrites seem to have been politically motivated. (I hope to find time to post more detail on this in the future.) Given all the rewrites, how does one know what the truth is? That is why I do not rely on religious books to tell me the truth. I still read them and compare what they say to what other information and experience I have, and then decide what I believe.
I suspect that if there is a God, he/she/it is not so very personal. I suspect that God wants us to grow up and take care of ourselves. I suspect that the way to honor God is to appreciate life and use our free will and our minds. Isn’t that why we were created with free will and a mind?
Your concept about forgiveness is agreeable.
Your need for love is human.
Your fear of being left alone is real.
We are all very heavily dependent beings. We depend on the food we eat and the air we breathe for our physical survival. We need mental support for our happy existence here. Tragically at death we lose our body and our dependency on people around us. We will be left all alone then.
You might ask me how do I know this. I know this because Christ said it in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Christ is the only person who can authoritatively talk about life-after-death because He is the only one who came alive from the grave. To me His words are authoritative. Words of Christ can be trusted and they must be trusted for our life to find its fulfilment here and here-after.
How do you call Christ? ‘He’ ’she’ or ‘it’? To me Christ is God in human form. I find fulfilment in Him even though I have a biting life here and now.
‘Christian’ and ‘Christianity’ do not make any sense to me. We come from a tradition where Thomas the apostle brought Christ to us and for centuries we remained the same. When the Bible was translted into our language one hundred and fifty years ago, one of our men got on to the the NT and he met Christ as his personal savior and lord and he began to preach NT faith to our people. So we are an indigenous group who have nothing to do with Western Christianity. We are known even to-day as ‘Nazraanees’. Government categorizes as ‘Syrian Christians’ and we do have links with some Christian groups. But We try to practice NT way of life, gathering in houses for prayer and fellowship. Some gather in meeting-rooms or prayer-halls as the case may be. We do not have any organizations, head-quarters or even so called pastors among us. We are all independent groups scattered around; our only link is faith and love.
I am telling you this to let you know that personal experience with Christ is possible without linking to Christianity which you seem to dislike.
I must stop now. If my conversation helps you in any way only will I continue. Please be frank. Tell me if it heps you at all. Other wise it is time for me to stop.
Bye for now.
Actually, I have recently come across some references to the Nazarenes and the apostle Thomas. Do you have any good links to their doctrine? I would be interested in reading more.
Though we come from that stock, we have no links with them whatever. They called us “separatists”(that’s the way we are known now) and cut us off from main line community.
The traditional Nazraanee(that’s the way it is pronounced here)community has become much like the Roman Catholic Religion with so many unbiblical rites and ceremonies. They worship saints and pray to them etc. So no links whatever.
Thank you for responding.
I will keep looking.
My faith in the Bible was cemented after studying the prophecies of the Bible.
I had selected passages which dealt with Babylon(modern Iraq) for my thesis. Who would have believed the prophet then when he said that Babylon was going to be a perpetual waste(Isa.13:19-22)? Babylon, as you know, was one of the wonders of the ancient world with its hanging-gardens. The French archaeologist who escaveted the site identified it with Babil Hill. He says the there is not even a rail-way station there now. Babil Hill is on the rail-road which leads to Bagdad. There is a wooden plaque which reads, ‘Babil Hill stop – trains stops here to pick up passangers’. A cmplete fulfilment of Bible prophecy.
The re-gathering of Israel as a nation in 1948 is another great event fulfilling the Bible prophecy(cf.Eze.37).
The Bible predicts three world wars before the end of this age(Eze.21:27). Russia is already playing a major role now and peace-treaty in Israel is in full swing(Cf.Eze.38).
Have you gone into this area of Bibleat all? Or is it all a trash for you?
No, it is not all trash to me. I am sorry if I gave that impression. But I did say more than once that I do still read the Bible and other historical records.
My concern is that the religious texts seem to have been rewritten and/or reorganized (leaving out some things) by various leaders over the centuries…that I am having trouble knowing which are truth and which are propaganda.
For example, the testimonies of Thomas. For most of my life, I did not even know he wrote any as the modern Bible does not contain his work. How many other apostles wrote books that did not get included? So much knowledge lost – like the burning of the Library of Alexandria – burnt by “Christians”.
Also, the story of Jehovah sounds much like the story of Marduk (of Babylon), which sounds like the stories of two different (older) gods of Sumer (Enlil and Enki).
I am still working on writing up some of my findings. It may take me awhile as there is a lot of reference material to sift through.
And actually, I have come across some of these prophesies you mention. I believe the site Babil Hill is just south of Bagdad. There are several websites stating that the U.S. very quickly went to this site right after bombing the daylights out of Bagdad. There are rumors that they are looking for artifacts…There are also a lot of folks out there (of various faiths and some who are not believers in religion) who believe that we are in the end days…I am beginning to think maybe we are in the End Times.
All the more reason to seek the truth of who or what the various gods are…
If you are still looking for evidence, I will give you the one which has satisfied me the most.
To me the greatest evidence for the resurrection of Christ is the martyrdom of His ten disciples in ten different parts of the world. Would any one be willing to killed ceuelly for a lie which they made up for themselves? I think, not. To me this settles the issue.
If Christ is a risen savior, we are all answerable to Him. Now that the world events are moving to the consummation of this age, as you said it is all the more reason to seek the truth.
In my evaluation your anger about people around you is turned to God, And that is tragic.
I earnestly adjure you to study the claims of Christ as found in John’s Gospel and decide for yourself before it is too late.
To me there is one God and one mediator between God and man – even Christ Jesus.
In His Business
Iam mathewpaul
Indeed, one would not want to die for a lie.
However, here is a thought…once the martyrs are dead, how do we know that their stories have been retold honestly? How do we know that the ones who killed them did not rewrite their stories?
Also, If Christ is a risen saviour, he is not the only one. There are older gods who were also risen saviors – Horus and Mithras, to name two. See article “The Mysterious Dying God” for a quick reference.
Many of these gods seem quite similar to “Enki” of the Sumerian Gods. In fact, if these gods are real, I think I like “Enki” best. He does have a lot in common with the Christ figure. Maybe they are all the same god. If so, I would follow him. But, I also think that we cannot rely on what religious authorities tell us as they may have an agenda.
Do you mean to say that history was falsified in all the ten cases? That sounds news!
Then about Mystery Religions: I had to study ANE religions as I did my PG in Old Testament and Hebrew. I know gods there died every year and rose again. The famous New Year Festival was celebrated every year depicting this. It always ended in perversity as they said new life came from there.
I had taken ‘Archaeology of Palestine’ as my optional subject for the same degree. I had to study about all the anciet sites in meticulous detail. The site of Calvary is never questioned by any competent scholar. Was there any historicity attatched to any of the other gods and their deaths? I think not.
Sorry, I am not here for argument. I shall not say any thing further as my case is clearly placed before you.
Don’t forget that the present actions are the seed for the future. This law is undisputed.
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